Curse

Shakkara · Sep 20, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Woot Finale of Restoration restored for PVE!

Top update!

/doesnt care about the rest.

lord of all tyria · Sep 20, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier?

Yelling @ Cats · Sep 20, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier for you?

Meh, I'd even disagree with this.

Like the AoE spells in blood (Unholy Feast and Signet), they were pretty bad in PvE. No melee could reasonably afford them, and they were largely useless for a necro. Blood is strong in PvP because it ignores armor and any prots. PvE, no monsters use prots, so the main boon of blood is basically useless.

Obviously, PvE could be fixed in a way so that monsters actually have decent skills bars instead of a deadly Holy Wrath/Heal Other skillbar.

BLOODGOAT · Sep 20, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

lol Mantra

600 PROTIP:
If you're using Mantra to cast your first cycle of enchants when enemies aren't attacking you, you're bad.
If it takes you more than 2 cycles to kill a group with 1 Monk, you're bad.
(Hint: that means you only use Mantra on the 2nd cycle)
If you can't drop Essence Bond from your bar or Life Attunement from your Smiter's (or both which is even better) to accommodate alternate offensive skills for necessary groups (sup enemy healers), you're bad.

The Mantra nerf IS nonsensical, but it just means you have to be a little less lazy when you're running 600 (which is probably why you're bad in the first place).

Also, anyone who relied on Selfless Spirit as a crutch to Monking is also bad. You can still Boon Prot. You could before the Selfless Spirit Buff, and you still can after this nerf. Just stop being shitty.

I accept the rest of the updates (see: nerfs) blindly as they don't affect me in any way.

Test Me · Sep 20, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier for you?

This. This is why PvE is broken.

The very basic, not to get into the details of the differences:

PvP = 4/8 x lvl 20 players in a team face same no of lvl 20 player

PvE = 8 lvl 20 players in a team face any number (3 to 20 to whatever) of up to lvl 40(?) AI controlled monsters with half skill recharge, insane armors, mana, health and juicy monster only skills no player could ever have.

Hmm very similar, indeed. Given the similarity it *must* be that all PvE balance should be based on PvP needs and we should give no thoughts to the PvE game play... cause it's not something that matters, is just an inferior form of PvP and it just so happens that the majority of players play PvE. Which again is another reason to only consider PvP balance when adjusting skills, cause it's the most logical thing do to. Right?

PS:
To balance PvE not a single skill would need to be nerfed. Instead PvE should be balanced by balancing the monster builds and AI. It's not the players that are the problem... it's the content (read monsters, zone maps, challenges, AI, etc) that are the issue in PvE.

How can you possibly obtain a balanced prophecies elite map when 3 more campaigns/expansions were made available to players with all their skills/mechanics but no update at all has been made to the monsters/zone in that elite area to take that into account? The choice is then obvious: instead of updating the zone they nerf to hell whatever build players come up with using skills from the other campaigns. So it's players against devs. GW is just about what build will players come up with that is efficient and how long it will take for ANet to spoil their fun and force them to find another one. And then the history repeats and then players loose interest and here we are today.

lutz · Sep 20, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

This. This is why PvE is broken.

The very basic, not to get into the details of the differences:

PvP = 4/8 x lvl 20 players in a team face same no of lvl 20 player

PvE = 8 lvl 20 players in a team face any number (3 to 20 to whatever) of up to lvl 40(?) AI controlled monsters with half skill recharge, insane armors, mana, health and juicy monster only skills no player could ever have. but are not even close to what would be considered "smart" by humans

Hmm very similar, indeed. Given the similarity it *must* be that all PvE balance should be based on PvP needs and we should give no thoughts to the PvE game play... cause it's not something that matters, is just an inferior form of PvP and it just so happens that the majority of players play PvE. Which again is another reason to only consider PvP balance when adjusting skills, cause it's the most logical thing do to. Right?

PS:
To balance PvE not a single skill would need to be nerfed. Instead PvE should be balanced by balancing the monster builds and AI. It's not the players that are the problem... it's the content (read monsters, zone maps, challenges, AI, etc) that are the issue in PvE.

How can you possibly obtain a balanced prophecies elite map when 3 more campaigns/expansions were made available to players with all their skills/mechanics but no update at all has been made to the monsters/zone in that elite area to take that into account? The choice is then obvious: instead of updating the zone they nerf to hell whatever build players come up with using skills from the other campaigns. So it's players against devs. GW is just about what build will players come up with that is efficient and how long it will take for ANet to spoil their fun and force them to find another one. And then the history repeats and then players loose interest and here we are today.

There's no reason why many of these skills should remain in PvE. PvE is already incredibly easy - completing hard mode missions without a fear of death and vanquishing without any fear of dying is basically pretty boring. I won't touch on speed clears since I know that's a different problem in itself.

The point is, the argument that "hard mode monsters are 8 levels higher than you" simply doesn't work. AI is AI. It can be abused. The reason why they're higher level than you is that they aren't (supposed to be) as smart as you (if they are, it's your own problem). You actually get 8 skills, and can change your skill bar and party composition. They can't. If you've played Guild Wars for awhile now, you should realize that that is what allowed Guild Wars PvE to work in the past when you fought monsters stronger than you.

Charlotte the Harlot · Sep 20, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Solo farming should never be taken into account for a skill balance.

Chocobo1 · Sep 20, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Official source stating that?

If you look at the Dev Notes, it's fairly implied that the update was for PvP and not PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

And the benefit or problem addressed is?

Benefit is Dungeon Running prices go up? This is good for anyone who isn't terrible at this game, as it is a good source of cash and doesn't require too much investment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I wasn't talking about selfless spirit, that was recently buffed so it needed adjustments.

But they have to design any PvE skill update for PvE, of course. It does not matter if that update is caused by a PvP update, if it touches PvE it has to be designed/justified for PvE as well. Same goes for changes to PvP skills because of PvE. What I am fed up with is ruining PvE playstyles and builds for the "PvP balance", cause obviously they can throw any change in PvE since PvE doesn't really matter, does it? They probably are not even aware of wth people play in PvE nor do they care (this and previous updates seem to point to that). However if situation was reversed and they would f up a PvP skill because of a PvE update... OMG it would be the end of the world!

No, I am not grateful for their PvE update. IMO they could have not change anything in PvE and split any skills they need to balance for PvP into PvE version and PvP version. As a matter of fact they should always do so and let us be.

I'm reading this and just trying to think what you relied upon so much in PvE that got ruined because of a PvP Nerf and I can't think of it. What are you specificly in tears about? Your argument would work if they changed a staple skill into dust because of PvP, but nothing of that sort has really happened here.

Martin Alvito · Sep 20, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

Solo farming should never be taken into account for a skill balance.

Protective Bond and Spirit Bond say, "o hai".

lutz · Sep 20, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Protective Bond and Spirit Bond say, "o hai".

Protective Spirit is a great skill for both solo farming and team play - it's necessary in many areas of PvE for healthy team play.

Arkantos · Sep 20, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Protective Spirit is a great skill for both solo farming and team play - it's necessary in many areas of PvE for healthy team play.

Where did he mention PS? He just pointed out that PB and SB were both nerfed in PvE because of solo farming.

Test Me · Sep 21, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Benefit is Dungeon Running prices go up? This is good for anyone who isn't terrible at this game, as it is a good source of cash and doesn't require too much investment.

You seriously think that dungeon runs are cheap and that is the issue???

How about: why the hell dungeon runs exist to begin with? Simple: PvE is sooooo broken and unbalanced that Mo and A can solo dungeons and all other classes *need* a run since they are unable to reach the same goal even in a team of 8 human players and getting 8 human players is the most luxurious you can go these days.

However I was saying something else:

Quote:

How can you possibly obtain a balanced prophecies elite map when 3 more campaigns/expansions were made available to players with all their skills/mechanics but no update at all has been made to the monsters/zone in that elite area to take that into account? The choice is then obvious: instead of updating the zone they nerf to hell whatever build players come up with using skills from the other campaigns. So it's players against devs. GW is just about what build will players come up with that is efficient and how long it will take for ANet to spoil their fun and force them to find another one. And then the history repeats and then players loose interest and here we are today.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

They've been nerfing skills in PvE for 4+ years now? If we were only to count how many times shadow form alone was nerfed in the past and you can safely call ANet PvE balance team insane.

So ANet: how many nerfs away from the holly grail of PvE balance are we? Just one more? Until the next one when we'll need one more?

I think it's safe to declare them insane. PvE will never get better with their skill nerfs, but they'll probably do that forever since that is the only thing they know.

zwei2stein · Sep 21, 2009, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

You seriously think that dungeon runs are cheap and that is the issue???

He has a point thou.

Runs are basically used to make up for either laziness of suckiness of runee. If costs raise, not only get 'good' runners more profits, it can also persuade some people to actually, you know, play the game.

There is little that can be done about someone getting ran thought content if he really, really wants to, but that does not mean it should be convenient and cheap to do so as well.

Shasgaliel · Sep 21, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

i have the impression that being forced to change build regardless why is a pain for pve people as if there is some emotional link with the skills used. On the other hand pvp people hate stagnancy and they want many different changes also for balance reasons. I do not see any way to please both of the sides without introducing further pvp/pve split....

Turbo Ginsu · Sep 21, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

I agree that the MoR nerf hurt 600 monks far less than it hurt pve mesmers, and folk who used it for non-600/farming builds. I never used it on my 600 anywhere I could survive just by being a bit more precise about what I was doing. That slot is far more useful for a million other skills IMO. I've taken some of the most hilariously wrong builds ever made into the UW in a 600/Smite situation, and not one of those ever died any more from not having MoR than it did for any other reason. The one thing I noticed their dying all had in common was that they were all death-related.

It did really annoy me however, that for the character I actually do use it for, my PvE Mesmer (Yes we do exist, and most of us love it >all), the skill is worthless.

I'm very glad that I also am not the first or only person who noticed how hard aNet owned themselves making it a non-split skill change, when they went out of their way to puff up and gloat about how the enemy could "See it coming" when the PvE enemy was always only ever going to be AI that didn't really need to any more than it already does.

Classic, that needs nothing else said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

There is little that can be done about someone getting ran thought content if he really, really wants to, but that does not mean it should be convenient and cheap to do so as well.

Want to bet on that? In Neverwinter Nights it's called "Exploiting" and you get banned for it. I guess there are just differing levels of serious when people talk about "Getting serious" on something.

BrettM · Sep 21, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

PvE is sooooo broken and unbalanced that Mo and A can solo dungeons and all other classes *need* a run since they are unable to reach the same goal even in a team of 8 human players and getting 8 human players is the most luxurious you can go these days.

Say what? My ele has completed all those dungeons with H&H in NM and is only three dungeons away from a HM book without getting a single run. So obviously all other classes do not *need* a run to complete the goal, unless your goal is to do it in a tearing big hurry.

jray14 · Sep 21, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

i have the impression that being forced to change build regardless why is a pain for pve people as if there is some emotional link with the skills used. On the other hand pvp people hate stagnancy and they want many different changes also for balance reasons. I do not see any way to please both of the sides without introducing further pvp/pve split....

QFT. GW totally lost all semblance of continuity between PvE and PvP with the addition of PvE-only skills (esp those from EOTN). All of my favorite PvE builds are centered around PvE-only skills, and when I go to try PvP, I find I have to start from square one setting up my skills. Not only are the PvE-only skills absent, but many of my favorite regular skills have drastically different behavior in PvP. Too confusing to keep track of... I just stick with PvE.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 21, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

i have the impression that being forced to change build regardless why is a pain for pve people as if there is some emotional link with the skills used. On the other hand pvp people hate stagnancy and they want many different changes also for balance reasons. I do not see any way to please both of the sides without introducing further pvp/pve split....

I think the reason they get pissed when skills are nerfed for PvP's sake is because many of them don't play the areas of PvP where it's causing a problem - so ArenaNet is basically ruining a balanced skill for no reason.

I play Ritualist, for example. The countless nerfs we got due to PvP abuse were incredibly annoying and I doubt most of them will ever be reverted. Is it fair for PvP players? Yes and no. Is it fair for PvE players? Not at all.

I don't mind overpowered skills getting nerfed (looking at you, Ursan and Shadow Form) but I do mind when a balanced skill gets nerfed because the HA/GvG people were too lazy to come up with a counter and decided to whine about it instead.

Which is why I love the PvE/PvP split. I just wish more Ritualist skills + SP would get fixed now that they aren't tied to the crushed PvP profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Want to bet on that? In Neverwinter Nights it's called "Exploiting" and you get banned for it.

Only if you're playing somewhere with a butthurt host/admin who waves a No Fun sign around all the time. And only a loser would play with someone who bans for that sort of thing. It's not exploiting.

DreamWind · Sep 21, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier?

This is actually a very good point that I think more people should understand. If something is overpowered in PvP, it is almost certainly overpowered in PvE. The difference here is that people may not realize it is overpowered in PvE because PvE has even more overpowered options that people are abusing.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 21, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

If something is overpowered in PvP, it is almost certainly overpowered in PvE

This is what we call a non sequitur. It's a form of logical fallacy.

You must explain why something being overpowered in one game type makes it overpowered in a drastically different game type.